CARR: I've been struck by how relaxed the leadership is about the wind down of our forces and they understand as we do that it's a matter of moving to a new relationship or a relationship that's going to be governed by a defence cooperation program, by assistance with policing, but without that presence that has been a feature of the last ten years.
COCHRANE: Well, a big part of that bilateral relationship is Australia's aid program to East Timor. You met with Emilia Pires last month in Canberra to discuss the new deal that East Timor wants in terms of the way it receives aid from Australia. How will that new deal change the way aid is provided?
CARR: They'll focus on capacity-building and support of education, skills and jobs and I'm going out today to inspect a couple of projects that will highlight that. I'm going to be speaking to graduates of Timor Leste, and I want to see how the skills that we helped them acquire as a benefit of the country. And one feature of the country's development from post-conflict, fragile status is their embracement of labour exchanges with Australia, with the seasonal worker program. It's still small, but I think Australian employers will see the advantage of recruiting and training workers from Timor. They've already been 12 Timorese workers completing placements in the hospitality sector in Broome, in northwest Australia and talking to their ambassador to Canberra, it's got a tremendous capacity to grow.
COCHRANE: Do you think that number should be raised significantly, more than the 12 that have already taken part?
CARR: Oh, yes, dramatically and it's employer driven. The Ambassador is seeking out Australian employers and saying we can fill labour shortages with keen workers from Timor Leste and I think that's got great potential and it's at embryonic stages right now, but I think the potential is great.
COCHRANE: The drive to create jobs within its own country is a big part of the ongoing dispute over the Greater Sunrise natural gas reserves off the coast of East Timor and between Australia. That site remains undeveloped as Woodside Australia and the East Timorese government still can't agree on how to process the LNG. The times running out here. The treaty expires in February. Is Australia prepared to walk away from this project?
CARR: Well, we're committed to working with the government to achieve a positive outcome. We're pleased to see the government of Timor Leste, the joint venture, stepping up their engagements since the election earlier this year. I know progress can appear slow at times, but there are complex issues to work through.
COCHRANE: And has that been part of the agenda of your trip at the moment?
CARR: No, I couldn't say it is. It hasn't been raised with me, I haven't raised it, that's something between the government and the joint venture.
COCHRANE: And just finally on East Timor. It's a new very new country in terms of the global community, it's also very keen to join ASEAN. Do you think it's too soon for such a small sort of vulnerable nation to join this regional bloc or does Australia support that bid?
CARR: We support their bid to join ASEAN. It's a matter for the government of Timor Leste how they want to present that bid to the 10-nation ASEAN grouping. For example, would they seek to achieve it over a say a five or seven year time table, do they want they kind or road map. But they've been very encouraged by the response from ASEAN members, but it might be a matter of accommodating any ASEAN concerns about the capacity of this young country by seeing that membership is achieved in stages, over a time frame.
CARR: Well, we're committed to working with the government to achieve a positive outcome. We're pleased to see the government of Timor Leste, the joint venture, stepping up their engagements since the election earlier this year. I know progress can appear slow at times, but there are complex issues to work through.
COCHRANE: And has that been part of the agenda of your trip at the moment?
CARR: No, I couldn't say it is. It hasn't been raised with me, I haven't raised it, that's something between the government and the joint venture.
COCHRANE: And just finally on East Timor. It's a new very new country in terms of the global community, it's also very keen to join ASEAN. Do you think it's too soon for such a small sort of vulnerable nation to join this regional bloc or does Australia support that bid?
CARR: We support their bid to join ASEAN. It's a matter for the government of Timor Leste how they want to present that bid to the 10-nation ASEAN grouping. For example, would they seek to achieve it over a say a five or seven year time table, do they want they kind or road map. But they've been very encouraged by the response from ASEAN members, but it might be a matter of accommodating any ASEAN concerns about the capacity of this young country by seeing that membership is achieved in stages, over a time frame.
There's another international membership that I discussed very happily with the government of Timor Leste and that's membership of the Commonwealth of Nations.
The Commonwealth is evolving into a community of democracies quite quickly when you look at the progress of the Commonwealth charter. I think this is something very worthy of the consideration of Timor Leste, bear in mind that Rwanda without a British heritage is now an active member of the Commonwealth. Mozambique out of the lusophone community is a member of the Commonwealth and it's entirely appropriate for Timor Leste to consider whether as an island state, a post-conflict state, a state that's moving to middle income status. It sees an amplification of its international engagement being achieved partly through membership of the Commonwealth.
COCHRANE: Well, what would Timor gain from joining the Commonwealth?
CARR: It would be joining an international forum where the votes and the views of a small island state count as much as the vote and the views of India or Nigeria or the United Kingdom.
COCHRANE: Well, what would Timor gain from joining the Commonwealth?
CARR: It would be joining an international forum where the votes and the views of a small island state count as much as the vote and the views of India or Nigeria or the United Kingdom.
I chaired a recent meeting of Commonwealth Foreign Ministers and I noticed states like Solomon Islands and Seychelles and I made a calculation. It seemed that it would be 54 Commonwealth nations, about 25 could be described as small island states. This would be the only Forum in the world where small island states would have a consideration equal to those of very, very populous nations.
COCHRANE: And what was the reaction from the Timorese officials that you spoke to about this idea of joining the Commonwealth?
COCHRANE: And what was the reaction from the Timorese officials that you spoke to about this idea of joining the Commonwealth?
CARR: They've got to consider it. It's something that's flickering on the screen of their considerations and I think it's got some inherent value and we would be very honoured to advise them on the steps towards Commonwealth membership, But, for Timor Leste, it is an opportunity to engage at low cost, the demands of ASEAN membership are pretty considerable for a small nation, in terms of attendance of the hundreds of meetings each year, through which ASEAN coordinates policies, shares information, provides consultation. The demands of the Commonwealth are much lower, but it would place Timor Leste in a very interesting forum and they'd be no conflict between that and membership with ASEAN, given that Brunei, Singapore and Malaysia are members of the Commonwealth.
COCHRANE: A very interesting issue, indeed. If you've just tuned in, I'm speaking with Australia's Foreign Minister, Bob Carr, whose currently in East Timor's capital, Dili and will next be heading to Sri Lanka. I understand that you'll be asking the Sri Lankan government to do more to stop people from trying to reach Australia by boat. Specifically what would you like to see the Sri Lankan government do to stop those dangerous boat trips?
CARR: Yes, I wont talk about this now and it's not a matter of me seeking more from the government of Sri Lanka. The government of Sri Lanka has been very, very cooperative in taking from us people being returned because they are not asylum seekers, because they're economic migrants and this is sending a very important message across Sri Lanka, that paying money to a people smuggler is not the way to get into Australia. You will be sent back. There have been 600 migrants, attempted migrants, irregular migrants returned to Sri Lanka with the full cooperation of the Sri Lankan government in the last few months and that is more involuntary returns than were delivered during the eleven years of the Howard government. So this is the way to demonstrate to people in villages across the country that paying money to a people smuggler and that's sustaining the business model of this odious trade is not the way to get to Australia.
CARR: Yes, I wont talk about this now and it's not a matter of me seeking more from the government of Sri Lanka. The government of Sri Lanka has been very, very cooperative in taking from us people being returned because they are not asylum seekers, because they're economic migrants and this is sending a very important message across Sri Lanka, that paying money to a people smuggler is not the way to get into Australia. You will be sent back. There have been 600 migrants, attempted migrants, irregular migrants returned to Sri Lanka with the full cooperation of the Sri Lankan government in the last few months and that is more involuntary returns than were delivered during the eleven years of the Howard government. So this is the way to demonstrate to people in villages across the country that paying money to a people smuggler and that's sustaining the business model of this odious trade is not the way to get to Australia.
COCHRANE: Senator, the economic environment in Sri Lanka is largely a result of the civil war and of years of ethnic persecution that's gone on around that conflict. Is it fair to simply divide asylum seekers into two groups, one being economic and the other being human rights migrants, if you like?
CARR: If we're not to make that distinction, we would be saying that Australian immigration could be driven by people smugglers. They would bring people to Australia, we would have to take them, instead of having an opportunity to run a migration policy and before long, the growth in so-called irregular arrivals would crowd out the legitimate and conventional immigration stream. Now we're not having that, we're not having that. Now the Australian people wouldn't buy that and we're not accepting it, therefore the high level of cooperation we've got with Sri Lanka is deeply appreciated and it's not a matter of going there to ask them to do more. It's a matter of seeing that our policies continue to be attuned to the needs of the two of us.
COCHRANE: Those seeking asylum of humanitarian grounds continue to say that there is discrimination against Tamils in Sri Lanka and also complain about the lack of accountability for years of impunity during and after the conflict. What will you be saying to President Rajapaksa when you meet him on human rights?
CARR: These are issues that Australia can't resolve through its migration policy and we participate with the government of Sri Lanka in reviewing progress on human rights at the Human Rights Council in Geneva.
COCHRANE: Will you be raising them with the President this time round?
CARR: Given what we've done in Geneva, I'll give some consideration to that. But Geneva is the forum where the government of Sri Lanka answers questions about its human rights record and about its records since the end of the civil war, that's the forum, that's the internationally-accepted forum.
COCHRANE: Bob Carr, I know time is ticking on, but I do want to ask as the first cricket test begins today. You'll no doubt be asked when you go to Sri Lanka about the calls of a boycott of Sri Lanka's national cricket team this summer over allegations of human rights abuses. We've heard both sides of the debate on the show this week. What's your view of that boycott call?
CARR: We're strongly opposed to it. We believe in engagement with Sri Lanka. I think the mechanism of a sports boycott is simply unsustainable and it's not the way to get the dialogue on human rights that we all want and which is taking place with Australian involvement and the involvement of the government of Sri Lanka where it should and that's in the Human Rights Council in Geneva where it's being approached in a systemic and rational way. I think you're just inviting a nationalistic backlash if you struck at cricket as a way of making a point about this country's human rights record. We want engagement with the government of the people of Sri Lanka. We've got a good partnership with them and in that spirit, I'm going there to talk to their government.
CARR: If we're not to make that distinction, we would be saying that Australian immigration could be driven by people smugglers. They would bring people to Australia, we would have to take them, instead of having an opportunity to run a migration policy and before long, the growth in so-called irregular arrivals would crowd out the legitimate and conventional immigration stream. Now we're not having that, we're not having that. Now the Australian people wouldn't buy that and we're not accepting it, therefore the high level of cooperation we've got with Sri Lanka is deeply appreciated and it's not a matter of going there to ask them to do more. It's a matter of seeing that our policies continue to be attuned to the needs of the two of us.
COCHRANE: Those seeking asylum of humanitarian grounds continue to say that there is discrimination against Tamils in Sri Lanka and also complain about the lack of accountability for years of impunity during and after the conflict. What will you be saying to President Rajapaksa when you meet him on human rights?
CARR: These are issues that Australia can't resolve through its migration policy and we participate with the government of Sri Lanka in reviewing progress on human rights at the Human Rights Council in Geneva.
COCHRANE: Will you be raising them with the President this time round?
CARR: Given what we've done in Geneva, I'll give some consideration to that. But Geneva is the forum where the government of Sri Lanka answers questions about its human rights record and about its records since the end of the civil war, that's the forum, that's the internationally-accepted forum.
COCHRANE: Bob Carr, I know time is ticking on, but I do want to ask as the first cricket test begins today. You'll no doubt be asked when you go to Sri Lanka about the calls of a boycott of Sri Lanka's national cricket team this summer over allegations of human rights abuses. We've heard both sides of the debate on the show this week. What's your view of that boycott call?
CARR: We're strongly opposed to it. We believe in engagement with Sri Lanka. I think the mechanism of a sports boycott is simply unsustainable and it's not the way to get the dialogue on human rights that we all want and which is taking place with Australian involvement and the involvement of the government of Sri Lanka where it should and that's in the Human Rights Council in Geneva where it's being approached in a systemic and rational way. I think you're just inviting a nationalistic backlash if you struck at cricket as a way of making a point about this country's human rights record. We want engagement with the government of the people of Sri Lanka. We've got a good partnership with them and in that spirit, I'm going there to talk to their government.
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